Kids First Co-Parenting with Dr. Royster
The podcast for moms raising secure kids after divorce & separation, even when their ex makes everything harder.
Kids First Co-Parenting with Dr. Royster
Mom Guilt: A Path to Calmer Parenting with Dr. Julianne Monday
Show Notes:
Dr. Karalynn Royster invites child psychologist Dr. Julianne Monday to explore the connection between anxious moms and anxious kids, discussing how parental regulation impacts children's emotional development. They share practical strategies for breaking generational patterns and creating emotionally safe homes while addressing the pervasive issue of mom guilt.
Key Points:
• Dr. Monday's journey from early childhood teacher to child psychologist focused on anxious moms and sensitive kids
• How parents under stress revert to patterns they experienced in their own childhoods
• The difference between mom guilt and mom shame and strategies for releasing both
• Why perfect parenting isn't the goal – repair after mistakes builds crucial resilience in children
• Importance of regulating your own nervous system through breath work and body-based strategies
• How modeling calm for your children works through mirror neurons even when they're upset
• Overview of the Wire to Connect program for anxious moms of emotionally sensitive children
Connect with Dr. Monday at the links below:
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Welcome to the Kids First co-parenting podcast the podcast for smart, intentional, millennial moms raising resilient kids after separation and divorce. I'm Dr Carolyn Royster, a child psychologist coach and a mom. After thousands of therapy hours with kids caught in the middle of high conflict households, I'm here to help moms like you do it differently, from peaceful co-parenting to total chaos. I've got you here. We talk boundaries, regulation and how to raise a great kid, even if your ex is beyond difficult. We blend science with real life and, as always, keep focused where it matters, on raising great kids. This is Kids First Co-Parenting. Welcome everyone back to the Kids First Co-Parenting podcast.
Speaker 1:I am very excited today I have my dear friend and colleague, dr Julianne Munday. She's here with us. Dr Monday is a licensed child psychologist, parent coach and a former early childhood teacher with over seven years experience helping families navigate big emotions, meltdowns and the messy moments of parenting. Dr Julie is passionate about the intersection of brain science and attachment theory. Coaching work begins with moms, helping them understand their own anxiety, soothe their own nervous systems and show up with more calm and clarity for their kids. Dr Julie is a big feeling person herself and she finds meaning in creating the kind of emotionally safe home. She now understands she needed as a child. She brings warmth, wisdom and real-life strategies to the table and I'm so excited to have her on.
Speaker 2:Welcome, dr Julie. Thank you, I'm so excited. Yeah, guest appearance.
Speaker 1:I know Well who better to do it with than my friend, so I'm so happy to have you. Why don't you start with kind of breaking down for us? I don't know where this passion came from for you, why Anxious Moms and Anxious Kids, and just why that? What's so interesting and intriguing about it for you?
Speaker 2:Oh, I love it so much. I think I was a teacher for a while. I knew I always wanted to work with kids. There's something about it that always I gravitated towards and so I was like maybe I'll go into education. And then I found myself as a special education teacher and general ed. So that was a really interesting experience because I'd be in my classroom as a special ed and then I'd push in for gen ed and do some co-teaching and you could see a lot of the different challenges.
Speaker 2:I became so fascinated with behavior. I became so fascinated with family systems when I'd meet the parents and trying to understand what is this behavior trying to communicate to us. Then I quickly found out I don't love teaching the ABCs, but I do love getting to know the child and like what's going on underneath, mm, hmm, and then, very quickly, you learning. You know this too. When you're working with kids, you're working with parents? Yes, you are. And so I started. You know, I went to grad school. I started training there and realizing like the work is really with parents. Yes, there are so many great skills and things we can do with kids, but it's parents and it's the parent who is bringing the child most of the time, and that is typically mom, although I do work with some dads. I just felt like I needed to figure out how to connect with the moms and really support and help them to understand they are so much a part of the dynamic.
Speaker 1:What is a?
Speaker 2:realistic expectation for your six-year-old kiddo and what is actually happening when we're dysregulated Mom and child. And I love attachment because, although it doesn't feel as like nitty-gritty science, we both know. I think you come very much from attachment lens. I do yeah, so much a part of that safety that a kiddo needs. I just love bridging both of them.
Speaker 1:I think you know I often forget that we both have an education background. All through undergrad I taught preschool and I just loved it.
Speaker 2:I didn't know that.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, yeah. I love early childhood. You did kindergarten right. Weren't you a kindergarten teacher'm?
Speaker 2:in kindergarten, first grade, for special ed. I also worked in autism classrooms.
Speaker 1:All grown up in the school district so I would push in and do like summer school, I think that work has informed, your coaching now and your work as a child I guess either one child psychologist or coaching how does that impact you?
Speaker 2:do you think A few ways, I think, because it was so early childhood, school was so young. You realize that is the time that kids are just soaking up everything and a sponge of everything. And then in my own personal inner child psychotherapy work I realized personal, like inner child psychotherapy work I realized, oh my gosh, this time is so important, it's so important for the rest of our life and I don't want to. I don't do that in a scary way of like, oh man, get it right, or yeah, now you've missed the window. I want parents to know that this is a really important time. This lays the foundation of the brain and the development for your child and that's where attachment comes in. How do I teach, how do I support moms recognize that their safety is laying that foundation for their child? Have that ability in the classroom as much. I didn't have the knowledge Interesting. Yeah, I could talk behavior a lot, but I couldn't really like sit down and get to know mom and understand what were her challenges in creating that safety and that co-regulation you know.
Speaker 1:Is that one of the things that it sounds to me like you're very passionate about diving deep with moms to really understand what they, where their anxieties lie and how that impacts children, and also what you had just said, the challenges around creating emotional safety. How do you do that? How, how does one do that? Like, where do you start with that? That sounds very overwhelming.
Speaker 2:It is a little overwhelming. Yeah, hey, mom, please like come in. Let's do that, because that's what one barrier I felt with therapy. I don't know if you feel this as much. It's more common for us to have kiddo come into the room. It is having meltdowns. My kid is having tantrums.
Speaker 1:Help him, help her, yes, my kid is having tantrums, help him, help her. Yes, and not even in a fix-it way, just in like a. I'll put their needs before my own any day of the week.
Speaker 2:We're just not really understanding right, because we're looking at the behavior rather than what is it communicating and unrealistic expectations. Why is my kid having a meltdown for 10 minutes? That's not normal in us coming in and being well. It is kind of this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean depending on the circumstances, right, but like having that voice that kind of calms that a little bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So where do I begin with that? Just, I think, building rapport with moms in a safe place within our relationship, so that there's not judgment, because we already work with anxious moms, we already work with moms that are very hard on themselves, right, very, a lot of guilt I think coaching allows me to build that relationship and trust where they don't feel judged or shame that keeps them from attending therapy sessions or like putting those first in that way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, why do you think so many moms misunderstand the quote? Unquote bad behaviors. What do you think is really going on during those moments?
Speaker 2:Nobody teaches parents that there's no parenting course before you have a child, right? I think a lot of it is new and I have to remind myself that this it's not just common knowledge um, it isn't so I think it's just lack of access, lack of exposure to, a lack of information in a lot of ways, and then their own upbringing, because we both know. Once you get dysregulated, you typically go to what you had done for you. Tell me more about that?
Speaker 1:What would be a good example of that? Because one of the things that I so appreciate about you, julie, is that I think you translate brain science into a very digestible, easy to understand concepts. So this is actually like what you're talking about is a very sophisticated and very complex brain mechanism, but when it happens to you as a mother, it almost feels like you're out of control of it, I guess. Obviously it's happened to me at times, and so I'm just curious if you can explain for our listeners a little bit more what you mean when you say that.
Speaker 2:The mom that maybe had a yeller. Maybe their mom or dad was a yeller growing up, so anytime they had a meltdown it'd be like go to your room and get sent off. Go calm down in your room. Stop crying. Like go to your room and get sent off. Go calm down in your room.
Speaker 1:Stop crying.
Speaker 2:They don't want to do that for their child. They're, like, very logical when they're calm, saying I don't want to be this for my kid, it was harmful to me, it felt lonely, but then they find themselves doing it. It is having a meltdown in Target and it's now going on 15 minutes and nothing's worked. So mom becomes dysregulated, mom becomes overwhelmed and she resorts back to what was done for her. She snapped yeah.
Speaker 2:You do what you know, you do what you know. That's how the brain works. When it's dysregulated, when it's stressed, we go to what was done for us, usually because we're not in our rational mind, and so that doesn't lead to co-regulation Big word, but child borrowing mom's calm in that moment. That's kind of how I explain co-regulation. Then they feel guilt. After that snapping they say, oh my gosh, I don't want to be this parent. I keep losing control. I ruined them. I ruined them. I'm never going to be good enough.
Speaker 1:I ruined our attachment. I hear that a lot and I'm like it takes so much more than one, I mean, unless it's something really egregious. But if you're thinking about attachment, you're definitely not ruining it after one outburst. That reminds me of finding your clientele.
Speaker 2:If you come in asking if you're definitely not ruining it after one outburst, that reminds me of finding your clientele. If you come in asking if you're a narcissist, you're probably not a narcissist, yeah exactly yeah.
Speaker 1:Or like crappy parents don't ask if they're good parents, like they don't care, they're not asking, they're not up at night wondering if they're doing right by their kids. They are, I don't know, doing all sorts of things, but not that they're not finding us.
Speaker 2:That's for darn sure. So the point is not to be a perfect parent. I actually don't want you to be a perfect parent.
Speaker 2:There's too much pressure, but there's so much resilience and skills that are learned through repair and conflict resolution and apologizing and accountability. All those things are so beautiful and that comes from an imperfect moment. It's okay to snap sometimes. Everybody does. Yep, let's talk about it right. Let's understand what your triggers are a little bit, let's understand. Do you even have coping strategies? Do you know how to self-soothe? Do you know how to calm your anxiety when you're feeling that shame and target? Yeah, and I think to your point earlier. Do you know how calm your anxiety when you're feeling that shame and target?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think to your point earlier. If you don't know your own history and your own triggers, it's hard to do it differently. I'm curious if that's one of the ways that you start to teach moms about self-regulation and what to do in those target moments, those meltdowns. Is that one of the steps? What else do you add? How do you teach? Everybody knows I should be calm. That's a lot easier said than done, so what are some of the ways that you help moms in those moments?
Speaker 2:That's one of and we'll get to my program later, but that's one of the modules. It's the first module in my program besides the brain intro. It's like let's just figure out what some of your triggers are. Is it the public meltdowns because you're embarrassed, or you feel shame or you feel judgment? Is it when you're overstimulated because you tend to be sensitive. We kind of talk about the difference of therapy and coaching. Sometimes we don't go super deep into the triggers.
Speaker 1:Right, it's not like let's tap it out and do some EMDR on that trauma trigger. Yeah, it's like you just say well, I had someone that yelled at me when I would get upset and Because that awareness is a big part.
Speaker 2:And then I go really, really, really far into how do you regulate your own nervous system? I don't think a lot of us adults are walking around with great toolkits because we often didn't learn when we were younger. We were just told to go calm down in our room alone, and who knows what we did up there.
Speaker 1:What I hear a lot is kind of a double whammy, I guess, is that not seeing our parents regulate very well? Yeah, and so not only was I as a child struggling with my own emotional experience, but then I was watching mom or dad lose their minds. Yeah, they weren't modeling how to handle anger. And you know all the big, all the big things, big things. This is quite an overlap between our two kind of groups of women that we work with, because I see a very similar message around high conflict, co-parenting, where it's you should just stay calm, just don't react, like, don't take the bait, and that is all really good advice and true, just like you, like don't fall into the tantrum, don't like lay down on the floor and scream with them. You know, yeah, and yet it's so much easier said than done when you're actually out in Target or when you're at the drop-off and things are going really sideways. It is very difficult to kind of correct, I guess.
Speaker 2:Difficult and sometimes I feel like I don't know. Probably you feel this with your population and I love that you're working with moms in this arena right. We overlapped a lot in Colorado with therapy clients and high conflict divorce. But yeah, you're the perfect person for it. Truly.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Thank you, my friend.
Speaker 2:But I often find that the advice is great but kind of harmful too, because when they don't live up to that standard at least my mom's anxious, high achieving want to be good enough, then they're like oh my gosh, I keep hearing I have to do it this way, but I just can't. Like I don't know how.
Speaker 1:It brings in this way overused phrase, but so apt about mom guilt, because mom guilt is just so pervasive and the feminist in me gets real caught up in how we put all these unrealistic standards on women and working moms and you have to be. All these things that are really, really challenging and there's a lot of noise on social media about seeming like a perfect parent. We kind of talked about that piece and so this is an area where I think you really shine around mom guilt. Talk to me a little bit about what you see with your clients around that and then how you support them in it. It's a tough one, I know. Tell me, tell me, julie, because I need it.
Speaker 2:But I think it goes back to we're not going to cure mom guilt. No.
Speaker 1:We would both be doing living very different lives if we knew how to do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know. So calling that out too, this is normal as well. In the same way, it's normal to snap sometimes we have to practice letting it go, because that is a 10-pound backpack you're carrying every moment, every day, and that's making it even harder for you to stay calm in those moments. So we call it out first. We call it out, we look at it a little bit in the same way. We look at triggers. What is the thing that makes you feel so guilty? What is that internal dialogue that is so pervasive? And then strategies, and it's a practice Like how do I do some mantras to calm my mind when it's spiraling, about how horrible of a parent I am, because I snapped for the fourth time today, and how do we acknowledge it? But let it go?
Speaker 1:So a lot of just acceptance and commitment we talk about the difference between shame and guilt, and I think when we're talking about mom guilt, we're actually talking about, like mom's shame and we sort of shame ourselves. I snapped I'm a terrible mother, right? Not like guilt is I did something wrong and or not good, however you want to say it, and there's something I can do about it. I yelled, I can repair. Shame is like I yelled. Therefore I'm a terrible mother, and those are some sticky, sticky differences.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's so different. It actually makes me think a little bit more of how it's necessary to talk about both of those, because maybe it's more mom shame that we're talking about. I hear a lot of mom shame.
Speaker 1:I think you're right, because when people are talking about mom guilt, it's often mom shame, because it's not usually something they can actually do anything about. No, but it's more, it's so internal.
Speaker 2:It's internal and it's similar to how I talk a lot about what's a realistic expectation for your kiddo. It's almost a parallel process, right? It's experience of like we're putting unrealistic expectations on our five-year-old and we're putting unrealistic expectations on ourselves.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:What is an appropriate expectation for you to target to support your kiddo, Because yours is like out of this world gold star right Like it's unrealistic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, do you find that when you're able to coach clients and kind of talk and walk along beside them as they sort through some of this stuff that they have? I don't know if I want to say an easier time, but it helps them to let go of some of that guilt a?
Speaker 2:little bit. Yeah, definitely yeah. My moms tend to love mantra work.
Speaker 2:I love a good mantra, yeah, so I find that that really resonates with a lot of moms too, and kind of soothing themselves before bed. Mom guilt, mom shame tends to like really creep in at night, right, why do you think that is Because you're reflecting on the day. There's suddenly space. As we know, anxiety loves some space. Your kids are in bed, you're laying in bed, you're trying to fall asleep. All those thoughts kind of come in. Really, we even pinpoint when is those guilt spirals coming and what do we do? How do we build a routine for you or a strategy or a plan to soothe yourself in that? Yeah, so I've said that's been very, very helpful to identify.
Speaker 1:And I think having your trusted voice right. It's not just some random post on Instagram. It's like a teacher, a psychologist, like someone who does this for a living is saying to you like no, that's, you know, that happens, that's pretty normal, or it must feel so reassuring. That's my take on one of the things you offer.
Speaker 2:And I think for the first, sometimes for the first time they're able to share about it and not just have it inside.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just spiral. It just banging around up there.
Speaker 2:And I imagine that's so relevant for your population too Like, oh, I can actually talk about this a little bit and not have it just swirl internally constantly. That also leads to shame, right yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, last time, you and I had a conversation, which is on YouTube, by the way, if you all want to see it, there's some fun parts where I drop the camera.
Speaker 1:There's all kinds of good stuff how you might have handled things or not handled things well but also around these decisions that parents have to make, whether it's marriage and relationships or schools or financial stuff or working or not working that moms just shame themselves for. If I hadn't asked for this divorce, we wouldn't be in this situation. This kind of narrative that it does help to have an outside person. That's like yeah, but it might be a whole lot worse, you know, if you had done it that way. Or like, yeah, of course you have to feed your family, you have to work.
Speaker 2:How do you tackle that shame, guilt, because I imagine that's so big, I know that's so big in your population because it's a choice, right.
Speaker 1:A lot of time feelsructuring in a fancy way of saying it, but that like there's no good or bad choice out, better on the other side sometimes, or at least having evolved through their healing and through themselves, and so I just try to release it with changing the way people think about the choices they make. In some ways it's easier when it was like a really bad relationship, because then it's like, well, yeah, girl, you had to get out, like what were you going to do? Stay there and continue to be emotionally abused Like duh, that's not good for your kid to see. So that's easier, I think, sometimes than when it's like we just fell out of love or we just grew apart or I just knew I wanted something different in my life. That I think it's much more complicated and more sticky, and often it's a therapy conversation, to be quite honest, which is done outside of coaching.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, because it's not as jarring, it's not as like. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was going to say that one of the resources that you offer that we will link in our show notes is about mom guilt. Can you tell us a little bit about that guide?
Speaker 2:Yes, it's the first one I created because I just felt like, yes, this is everywhere.
Speaker 2:Yes, and they're like I want strategies to help calm my kid down and I have one of those for a freebie, but I was like we can't even get to that part until we address mom guilt. A lot, yes, yes, because there's tons of strategies out there, but I just kept feeling like we're not, you're not even able to implement it yet because you're dysregulated in the moment. That shame guilt. Three strategies on how to release that mom guilt and again, not a cure, but it's a practice right.
Speaker 1:It's something to get you started on this journey.
Speaker 2:It's something to get you a little bit more comfortable looking at guilt, observing it, and then a little bit I do some cognitive, but I like to do the body too. I believe so much in body work of like. Let's regulate the nervous system through body strategy.
Speaker 1:When you say body work, are you talking about breath work and movement? Tell me what you mean by that.
Speaker 2:I do a lot of breath work. I don't think you can bypass how good. I really can't yeah, Breathing is you know, people roll their eyes at us and we're like maybe we should breathe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a trope, because it works. That's why everybody's talking about breathing. It's effective.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do some visualization. I do love a good like parasympathetic. I know this is jargony, but vagus nerve, I don't know. I've just gotten so into. How do I relax my body and my mind will follow the same way. How do I relax my mind and my body will follow. I think there's such beauty in like let's just tackle the body work and the mind will follow Great entry point.
Speaker 1:You teach moms a lot around how to do both those things and they kind of will come hand in hand.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 2:And then out of that flows regulation to your kid and your modeling right and I talk about why modeling modeling so important with the brain and mirror neurons. So I really I don't know. I'm just so passionate and I love so much how my program and how I kind of conceptualize bridges both of those. Yes, don't know how you talk about the strategies and you're calm, without sort of letting oh, this is how the brain works, like your kid doesn't have to even do the deep breathing If he sees you doing the deep breathing. Yeah, Magic.
Speaker 1:That's a great segue for us. Dr Monday Like, tell me a little bit about the program. It's called Wire to Connect right and I'm dying to hear about it. Tell me about it.
Speaker 2:Wire to Connect. So it's a four month, although when I launch it I'll have a beta group and there's a couple additionals for being a part of the beta group. So four months. We learn a lot about the brain, but in a digestible way. We learn a lot about strategies of self-soothing for mom and for kiddo, right. So I do a very adult module so that they can build their toolkits, and then I do the kid version that they can begin teaching their little ones how to regulate. And then tons of strategies talking about why transitions are stressful, what does predictability feel like, the importance of safety and just validating. So a little bit of that, a lot more about the brain. Is there a?
Speaker 1:group coaching involved or access to you? Yes, okay, tell me about that part.
Speaker 2:Once a week, group calls Amazing. And then again for that beta group I'm offering one-on-one too. I do two 30-minute one-on-one with me where we can get nitty gritty, although you probably I don't even think it's needed a lot of times because the group calls are so powerful, that's what I have found, too, is there's something so powerful about a group of women mothers joining together and talking through whatever is happening.
Speaker 1:I think that's what my group members love the most. Yeah, honestly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and with that I have a VIP Facebook group. I have a free Facebook group which we'll link to, because I do a ton of Facebook Lives. I offer so many things each day like mantras, toolbox, kit, stuff. So we're a lot of goodies in that freebie or the free group. But my VIP group will be a little bit different, right, we'll have like a very much smaller community and where we can dialogue a little bit deeper throughout the week.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what an amazing value that would like, when my kids were young, to be able to have a place where I could just be like I don't know what to do here, where you could put it in and have like a coach tell you this is what I think you needed to do. What would have helped your kid in the moment or this is totally normal, carolyn? What would have helped your kid in the moment or this is totally normal, carolyn Calm down Would be just so valuable.
Speaker 2:And again.
Speaker 1:We will link that private Facebook group, we'll link the program as well, and then that guide that we were talking about, the mom guilt guide. I am certain my listeners are going to want to gobble that up as well. Who is your group really for? Who would be a good fit? Because I imagine me being like your hype woman. I'm like everybody should be in this. But I also know that you have sort of this like sweet spot that's really value driven for you around, what kind of moms you love working with. So tell me who would be a good fit.
Speaker 2:I think a good fit would be anxious moms, but they're very growth-minded, they're dedicated to growing. I'm kind of putting it 5 to 12-year-olds, although I'm not concrete on if a 4-year-old mom wants to come in.
Speaker 1:Right, right. Or if you have multiple kiddos, if you have a 3-year-old and an 8-year-old, it would be fine, totally fine.
Speaker 2:So anxious moms of 5 to 12-year-old, it would be fine, totally fine. So anxious moms of five to 12-year-old kids who, their kids, are typically big, feeling sensitive little ones and they're just ready to ditch the mom guilt, improve their confidence and reduce the meltdowns so that they can have a stronger connection with their kiddo.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm assuming by meltdowns you mean some of these big feelings like tantrums, screaming, crying, that kind of stuff. But I can also see this being useful for the kids that have more internalized meltdowns crying, shutting down, retreating a little bit Is that the case, Okay, and you think that I mean.
Speaker 2:as you know, it manifests differently depending.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's what I was thinking.
Speaker 2:We talk a lot about big feeling, sensitivity, and not in a bad way. It's a beautiful thing, but I think it's a beautiful thing.
Speaker 1:I mean, look at you. You're a testament to that. You're a deeply feeling person and it's like your superpower, you know.
Speaker 2:I love it. I love these kiddos that just feel.
Speaker 1:they feel you know I love it. I love these kiddos that just feel they feel Well. That's why you're so uniquely positioned to be doing the work you're doing is because you've seen it in multiple facets. You're obviously you're highly, highly trained. Who better than a child psychologist? Right? And you have this like personal experience as well. I loved in your bio and you said I just want to be the person I needed, and that's exactly my ethos as well.
Speaker 2:Isn't that interesting that we gravitate towards like almost leaving our inner child? Still with our passion lies, or why we're so deeply attached to our populations and our program and our coaching. Yeah, it's interesting and it's beautiful. I'm proud of us.
Speaker 1:I'm proud of us, so I can. All right, my dear friend Again, everybody, I will link all those great resources for you. We'll also link all the social profiles where you can find Dr Monday. If you're struggling to connect with her and you want to, you can also reach out to me and I can put you in touch with her as well. So thank you so much for listening and we'll see you on the next episode.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Kids First Co-Parenting. The best way you can support the show is by following, rating and reviewing wherever you listen to podcasts and by sharing it with another mom who could use the support. You can also connect with me on Instagram and Facebook at Learn With Little House, where I share daily tips and encouragement for moms raising kids through high conflict, divorce. And if you're ready to go deep and get more tools, scripts, personalized support and coaching, come join us inside the Kids First co-parenting community. You'll find the details at learnwithlittlehousecom. Until next time, remember your kids don't need you to be perfect. They just need you to be steady and grounded and, as always, to put them first. Thanks for being here.