Kids First Co-Parenting with Dr. Royster

BONUS: Inside A Therapist-Led Divorce Recovery Group, an interview with Dr. Kristen Hick

• Dr. Karalynn Royster • Season 1 • Episode 16

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We explore how a therapist-led, process-oriented divorce recovery group helps women move through grief, confront shame, and build real co-parenting skills when conflict runs high. Join us for the bonus conversation with Dr. Kristen Hick (Center for Shared Insight).  Along the way we name false summits, choose the right hills to die on, and find a steadier path forward.

What's in this episode:

• What a process-oriented group offers beyond support
• Weekly flow, safety, and facilitated interaction
• Grief as a normal, nonlinear part of divorce
• Shame vs guilt and why shame is stickier
• Community as an antidote to isolation
• Group and individual therapy working together
• Control traps with new partners, bedtimes, and rules
• Choosing enforceable hills and protecting peace
• Venting with boundaries and narrative work
• The long arc of recovery and holding hope

Join us today. We’ve made the Kids First Co-Parenting System a membership so it’s more accessible and affordable for moms just like you. Come in and get your first month and all the lessons again. You’ll find the details here. 

Find Dr. Kristen Hick at the Center for Shared Insight, and learn more about the Divorce Recovery Group. 
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If you’re tired of every conversation with your ex turning into a fight, the High Conflict Communication Bootcamp for Moms  is for you.  In this  self-paced 3 day online course, get scripts, strategies, and a workbook you can use right away, designed for moms in high-conflict co-parenting and parallel parenting. Enroll now for just $19 here. 

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SPEAKER_01:

Welcome to the Kids First Co-Parenting Podcast, the podcast for smart, intentional, millennial moms raising resilient kids after separation and divorce. I'm Dr. Carolyn Royster, a child psychologist coach, and a mom. After thousands of therapy hours with kids caught in the middle of high-conflict households, I'm here to help moms like you do it differently. From peaceful co-parenting to total chaos, I've got you. Here we talk boundaries, regulation, and how to raise a great kid, even if your access beyond difficult. We blend science with real life, and as always, focus where it matters on raising great kids. This is Kids First Co-Parenting. Dr. Kristen Hick is a licensed clinical psychologist specializing in healing, strengthening, and transforming intergenerational patterns to help individuals create the relationships they desire, both with themselves and others in their lives. Dr. Hick's experience includes dating and divorce recovery, trauma and abuse healing, and supporting women's perenatal and reproductive health journeys. She integrates EMDR, internal family systems, and attachment-informed treatment methods into her work. A highlight of Dr. Hicks Week is facilitating a divorce recovery group for women navigating and recovering from legal separation and divorce. She has been leading this process-oriented therapy group since 2014, offering support to women divorcing from both same and opposite sex partners. This group helps participants cope with the grief and the emotional overwhelm, navigate co-parenting challenges, understand relational patterns, rebuild their identity and confidence, and create a fulfilling life after their divorce. With over 20 years of experience in the field, Dr. Hick, alongside her therapy dog Barley, who is so stinking cute, by the way, provides compassionate and skilled therapeutic care for adults from all walks of life. I would love to welcome my dear friend, colleague, and clinical psychologist, Dr. Kristen Hick. Welcome, Dr. Hick. I'm so happy you're here.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, likewise. I'm happy to be here finally.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, my friend and colleague. It's gonna be good to talk. I said friend first because of course. Well, I really wanted to have you on the show because we have a lot of overlap. We have a lot of common areas of focus, I guess. In particular, your divorce recovery group is I refer to that all the time.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Because I my in the coaching program, I'm not doing therapy. And so I think this is a really helpful resource. So maybe we can just start with that. Tell us a little bit about what the group is, how did it start? Who's it for?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Just go there. Um it's a divorce recovery group and it's a process-oriented group. Most people think of therapy groups as support groups, and this is a little bit different. It goes into a lot more depth and it gets into the interactions between members within the group are explored because that's reflective of maybe how you do things on the outside too. Okay. So everyone in the group is moving through or recovering from the experience of divorce. So it's a little bit different than a just a normal run-of-the-mill general process group. You're processing something very specific, but then also adding the between member reactions of you said this when someone was talking about this. What did that bring up for you? So it goes a little bit deeper than just a support group, but there's a lot of support there.

SPEAKER_01:

Do you have a topic each week? Or how does that do you just like whatever has come up for you this week, and then you guide people along?

SPEAKER_00:

So we don't have a topic, but what I would say to people who are interested in the group is that we get to all the topics eventually. We're gonna talk about boundaries, we're gonna talk about grief, we're gonna talk about co-parenting, we're gonna talk about how to prep, not necessarily legally prep for mediation in court, but like how to emotionally get yourself ready and what are you doing to get yourself there? We talk about betrayal. We talk about dating after Yeah. So we talk about so many different topics, but they come up, they just come up naturally.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So people they come into the group, we check in, we just start with checking in with every single person. Um, and it happens the same way every time, which is a point of like grounding people in the group, where are they at in their week, helping them sit and reflect on what it is they need from the group, and then we kind of go there. Sometimes it's I need help figuring out whether I'm right to think I want to switch my attorney that I'm having some issues and I don't know if that's okay to do and how hard that might be. Or I am really challenged with how to respond to my co-parents in a way that's not going to inflame things. Or I feel like saying this, but I know I should say this, so I need some some help. Or I'm just really struggling with how alone I feel. We're getting to like all of it, but it comes up naturally based on what people are going through.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And, you know, this is, I think, one of the kind of symbiotic dynamics that you and I have is that I sometimes we have a little overlap, right? Obviously, I'm more there's always kids involved with the people I work with. And you don't necessarily have to have kids involved as you say it's more common that people have kids when they come to the group, but absolutely not. It's yeah. And I think there's this piece that I always talk about with my moms is you know, I can coach you and teach you around what to say in response to that comment, how to actually handle it. Your therapist or your group members will teach you why it triggered you and explore that and like go deeper into those feelings in a way that is not appropriate for coaching.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, that's a great distinction between it. I'm not saying what to say. I'm really the other group member shouldn't be saying you should say this. Right. But how what comes up from you when you want to say that? Right. Um what is that usual pattern for you? Why is it hard to say that other thing? Right. Um, that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_01:

And sometimes that's where I get a little stuck, right? Is because in my mind, there's kind of a clear best response. And sometimes when people don't do that, you're like, there's something else happening here, and I need you to explore why you are not listening. Uh-huh. So why what do you think is special about it being in a group as opposed to, you know, a lot of my moms have individual therapists and I think they do a beautiful job, but why would someone be more a fit for like the group versus individual? Or do you say both? What do you what do you think about that?

SPEAKER_00:

I really encourage both. It's not mandatory for a variety of reasons because sometimes it's not even financially possible to do both. Yes, girl. So it's an expensive season. Yeah. So many different ways. I strongly encourage people to be doing both at the same time because there's so much that comes up in the group that they're going to want to take back to their individual therapist to process a little bit more or to then bring it back to the group and kind of re-explore it. But there's so much that comes up in individual therapy that even if your therapist is really specialized in the area of divorce, it's still going to be so different than coming from a person that's in it. That community of being with people who are in it with you, they get it. They get that you are feeling such and such on that day, right? That, you know, this day makes you feel this. It's just they they get it because they're in it with you is a really different experience. Oftentimes people will say, No one in my family has been divorced. No one in my friend group has been divorced. Or if they have, it's been so long. Yep. Or so different of a divorce that they don't really get why it's hard for me. And so being with a community of people that really get it and are getting the complexities of those higher conflict divorces is just different. It's different.

SPEAKER_01:

When I think you and I hear this theme all the time, but isolation, loneliness, you nobody really gets it, or everybody I knew we were married, or we were it was a shared group, and now I don't have that group. The experience of being alone when you start working with this group, you do see it kind of everywhere. But I think about like our friendship group and our friends and things like that, you know, you just might not be in a group that there that that's happened. I'm really curious why this was of interest technically, and just like what drew you, because I find people are not usually doing this work without a little bit of their own story in it. Just kind of curious what drew you to like women in divorce and also this word recovery. I think recovery is such an um intentional choice of words. And so I'm I'm very curious about that. It was like four questions in one, but go. Yeah, I'm gonna do my best. That was that was a lot of questions. Okay, so this group.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Why this? So I started out with a group, honestly, because I love groups. I had really excellent training when I was on internship doing process groups, a co-ed process group that was more general in nature, and a trauma group for women.

SPEAKER_02:

And I loved it.

SPEAKER_00:

I just loved it, loved it. Anywhere I could do a group, I tried to do a group. Moving back to Denver and going into private practice at that, really wanted to get a group going. And at the time, my specialty was just working with post-relationship growth and recovery. That was really my niche was dating, divorce, recovery. And to do a group for like breakup and divorce recovery, and realized that there really wasn't one offered in Denver that wasn't at a church. They might want another option. I mean, there were workbook manual guided groups that were very structured, but there wasn't anything that was more supportive, process-oriented in nature.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I just wanted to interrupt really quick and have you clarify what process groups really are versus like psychoeducational groups, which I do think are offered more readily.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. I'll start with psychoeducational. So psychoeducational is you work usually from a workbook. The facilitator is usually in charge of disseminating the information. You go in some order. There might be some sharing or some reflection, some journaling between the groups, but there really isn't a lot of cross-talking processing with other people, right? Um a support group is not usually done from a manual or a guided book, but sometimes it can be run by a therapist, but often can just be run by someone who's been through the group and has no formal training. Umed can be with some training or more training, but there's also not requirements around training.

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

And then there's process-oriented groups or process groups are the real deal where where there's no agenda, there's no shared reason why people come. It's really just what are we learning from each other about ourselves coming to the group? And then the process-oriented, it's kind of a spin-off of that, where there might be a reason you're coming to the group, such as divorce, divorce recovery. It's run by someone who's trained, hopefully who's licensed as well, who has some training in how to facilitate therapy groups. It's a contained group, and the type of sharing is facilitated by the facilitator. Boundaries and structures how you know.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and confidentiality and all the things, right? It's a much my experience in running and observing kind of all different types of groups is if it's done well, there seems to be a lot more emotional safety in a group like that. You know, because you know the the facilitator is gonna step in or call somebody on if they're being really difficult. You learn about other people in a deeper way. There's there's more safety and vulnerability. Yeah. So you loved that. You were like, I like that juicy processy.

SPEAKER_00:

I love that. Oh, that's just the that's the exciting and growth-worthy stuff that I love. That was what I thought drew me to the group. Yeah. I'm also a child of divorce, um, an adult child of divorce. And so over the years, it became clear that there was maybe another reason I got called. Yeah, I was like, oh, I just happened to work with kids in this area.

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

But it just kind of like started, and then it was, oh, but this is where I'm landing, and I'm landing here for probably a reason.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So um, you know, seeing your family go through that, how they navigate it, how it impacts kids at different ages, how it affects kids that can learn how to be resilient and yet still deal with it as an adult. It's a kind of a unique role. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

To be there for other it must be really moving and incredible to kind of walk with people recovery. This is Dr. Royster coming in to you to let you know, my wonderful listeners, that we've made some really exciting changes to the kids' first co-parenting system. Because co-parenting with a difficult access app is something that you go through a program and you come out the other side and it just magically works. That's not how this works, unfortunately. And so we revamped the kids' first co-parenting system. Come in and get your first month and all the lessons again. You can work as many months as you can protect and check out the house to come and join us to get the support. I know that you need it. We are here for you. We're inside the community. We've made it a membership so that it can be so much more accessible and affordable for mobs just like you. Join us today.

SPEAKER_00:

Then when it became the divorce recovery group, it it was really from a place of empowerment that this isn't have to be some mark on your life. You can recover from this, you can move forward, and you can build a life that you want for you, kids. I think that's the the kind of energy I wanted to bring to it. It was kind of an honor um to have women call. Um, I do work with men too, not as much, but do work with men going through the divorce and other issues as well. But women are the ones that are in the group. And for them to be in the thick of the grief and being like, how am I ever going to get through this? How am I ever going to be okay again? And having the the knowledge that I see people through this and have for over a decade, seeing them get to the other side and being like, oh, okay. Okay. So being able to say it's not gonna feel like this now, but in a year you're gonna be in a different place. Yeah. Not saying it's gonna be perfect and everything's resolved and everything's unky dory, but you're gonna be in a different place.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. We do have that unique gift, I think, and I think you do this very well of I can hold the hope for a little while that it won't always be this bad. You know? You mentioned grief, and grief was something I wanted to ask you about. Yeah. How do you conceptualize the grief around divorce and what helps and what makes it harder?

SPEAKER_00:

You know, grief is a really normal part of the process. And most people don't think of grief in relationship to things that aren't death. I was just gonna say that. Like if it's not death, but it is very much like a death. Yeah, it is a death of a marriage.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Or relationship is a death of a future together, dreams you had, all the things, right? Thinking of it as a death, I think does help people get there. But even if you don't think of it that way, it is just still grief. And grief looks like sadness and loneliness and depression and not being able to do the normal things you normally can do as easily because you're slowed down. It just everything's a little harder. Being able to be with those feelings to say, Yep, this is the grief coming up, and allowing yourself to feel the grief, to acknowledge it, like that makes sense that I'm feeling this grief. My whole life is changing. My family's life is whole is changing. Our family is gonna always look different from here on forward. That's a grief.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And so being with it, acknowledging it. And then, you know, what do I need to do with it?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. Well, and that's the hard thing about grief in particular is one, it's not linear. Things like things that you think are gonna be okay aren't.

unknown:

No.

SPEAKER_01:

And things that you're like, I'm gonna be fine for this anniversary or birthday or whatever it is. You're not, you know. And so it doesn't come in predictable ways. Speaks right up on you. It really does. And what do you do with it? I have always struggled with grief because I'm just like, okay, I gotta get through this. Like, I gotta get through the grief. Like somehow you can speed it up. It doesn't work that way. It doesn't work that way.

SPEAKER_00:

It doesn't. And I would say, even though I'm thinking about there's only a 12-week commitment, initial commitment to the group, and then you're welcome to continue after that. I really feel like the sweet spot for a lot of women being in the group is just over a year. Interesting or or I'll back that up. A year from separation. This is for only people that come right after the separation. And then they're going through all the stuff that comes up in the first year. And then the whole all the holidays, right? Yeah. And then they get past the anniversary of the separation. And then sometimes it you're post-decree by then, but sometimes you're really not, right? And probably the lot of the high conflict divorces we both yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

But that's so funny. Yeah. I wish lots of times post-decree, and we're still still going through conflict stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And I all historically have had women in the group for much longer than that. The point being is you're getting through those markers that just automatically bring that grief up in a different way. That at least you have the support through those things. Now, someone coming in post-decree, it's still gonna look different. But I feel like, you know, having an awareness, and by then you probably have more of an awareness than right after separation, that it's gonna take a while and it's not in the year and the grief is gonna pop up at some unexpected times.

SPEAKER_01:

Do you think that there are factors that make, I guess just in your experience, that make it harder? As clinicians, we do see people that sort of get stuck in grief and then it becomes something bigger, might trigger depression or some some kind of bigger issues. Where do you see women get stuck? Do you think it's those high conflict people?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, we say all. The reasons why they call is they've got the they're running into the difficulties. They can't kind of get something under their feet. It's usually that it wasn't their choice. And by that I mean like it's not necessarily that they didn't initiate, but they wish they didn't have to initiate. So it could be they they didn't initiate that it was like a surprise, betrayal, out of the blue. Somebody changed course. Yeah. Yeah. Someone changed course, my life just got flipped upside down, I didn't see this coming, kind of thing. Or it could be we've been trying for so many years, and I've tried so hard to make this work, and I didn't want it to get to this place, and there's nothing I can do to make this better, and that really is so hard.

SPEAKER_01:

Um like a powerlessness, like almost a lack of agency, I think.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, absolutely. When they don't have agency over doing it, but then at the same time, sometimes the hard part is that everyone thinks your ex is just this perfect person or really great person and you know a different side, and then you're dealing with the guilt of I just blew up my family, or that's what it feels like. It's that too. But that's there's I mean, there's so much too many layers over there. Yeah. Yeah. Typically, when there's more of a complicated grief to bring it back to grief, there's some complicated factors. This isn't two amical people amicable partners that came to terms with the fact that they're not a good match or they felt love, you know. Right.

SPEAKER_01:

That's that's not these are not the people, you know. I have a a friend that doesn't super love their, I mean, they're not, they're not together, right? Like hasn't loved some of the things they've done, right? But this person will talk about sitting down at the kitchen table and like going through their divorce, like working out the kind of contract they were gonna have. And that just that's just not the people I work with. Like that just blows my mind.

SPEAKER_00:

I imagine a very small percentage. Yeah, like obviously, yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Like you're still gonna have grief in that. It's still gonna be difficult. It's still gonna trigger you and bring up hard things. But it does feel just qualitatively different. I see a lot of guilt and shame in this population. How do you see that? What do you see and how do you work with that, Dr.

SPEAKER_00:

Hick? It's challenging.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Because the shame, if it's there, has been there for a long time. Ooh, say more. Well, shame usually starts really young.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it does. And then it does grows.

SPEAKER_00:

And then it grows. Guilt doesn't necessarily start very young. But it grows basis when you're not really living in alignment with with your values. Um shame is I am bad, guilt is some choice. Yeah. Yeah. So shame typically we see more when there's been some sort of high conflict, manipulation, abuse, um, whether that's emotional, physical, financial, sexual abuse, right? Yeah. The shame response is much more common. I've done something I didn't do I didn't do enough to fix this. If only I had been better at X, Y, and Z, then. And that that's that's hard, that's hard work. That's long work.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I find shame much harder both in myself and my clinical work, just broadly speaking, broad strokes, not even in divorce world. Shame is just a lot harder to work with. Yeah. It's a lot harder to tackle. There's it's a journey to recognize it, and then it's a journey to challenge it, and then it's a journey to believe those challenges.

SPEAKER_00:

Right, right. And it's the really cool part and the really hard part about seeing how it shows up in gr a group of women is that when they feel safe enough to share the most vulnerable parts. Maybe the, you know, the the messy, yucky parts of what happened in their marriage, and they can be seen by others in the group without the look of you did something, you're you're you actually are to blame here.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00:

When that when they don't judgment on everyone else's face and they instead see warm, loving, receptive eyes and get a warm, loving, receptive response to it, it starts the work. Yeah, I guess.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, because you know, what is that line Brene Brown always says, shame can't survive in the light, right? But you need a light to yeah, I can imagine. I mean, I think about some of my friendships and my relationships and my community and how powerful it is when you do share something that you feel ashamed of or have shame around. And the people that love you just say, like, well, yeah, you were surviving, or you were making a very difficult decision, or that makes sense, or I would have done that too, or that it's facilitated to be so supportive like that is such a gift, Dr. Chris. It's just really such a gift. I wonder what you see as some of the hot spots, the thing, the like trouble spots, the areas where people really struggle. And part of the reason I'm thinking about this is new partners has been a theme for me lately. And I actually try to find some resources on introducing new partners to kids and just kind of how to navigate that. Yeah. And had a very hard time finding anybody that would really had a hard time finding podcasts, I had a hard time finding books. It's not, I don't know. So for me, that would be a hot spot that I can imagine. But what are some of the things you see? I don't know, making things trouble spots, common trouble spots, I guess, in this recovery process.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think in a similar vein as introducing new partners is really the broader difficulty of not having control over what's happening.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Not having control over what time they go to bed, your kids, not having control over screen usage, not having control over or say in any number of things, including how and when a new partner gets introduced and to what extent and who it is. And who it is. Yes. And certainly in the separation agreement, you can set with your co-parent some expectations, but we all know that is only as good as people are willing to follow. It's a like a friendly handshake kind of deal in some respects with that. And it doesn't always get carried out. Those are really hard because when a parent who has been really involved in the parenting choices they've made so far with their kids are hearing about all the things going on at the other house and they don't have control.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

It's really, really hard.

SPEAKER_01:

I I mean, I I see that quite often. And, you know, there's a line. There are some things that when you hear about it's like, yep, we're not doing that. Like that's very clearly, I know the steps to take, I know how to do this. But I think it's the smaller stuff that actually is really I think bedtime's like such a good exclamation. Or like sugar, yes, or junk food, or are we late to school every day? Like you're not gonna file a motion about you can't, you can, but and a lawyer will happily take your money, but a judge isn't gonna, they're not gonna love that.

SPEAKER_00:

Spend your time wrapped up in court forevermore. So you have to be willing to know what's the hill to die on.

SPEAKER_01:

I know. And that is a hard, that's a big ask. It's a big ask. And it, you know, I talk with moms a lot. Like it sounds so easy to just be like, you can only control what happens in your home. And I teach on that, and that's true, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01:

But my goodness, is that hard to put into practice?

SPEAKER_00:

It is, it really is. It's I you know, that's that's probably the biggest next to the death of the marriage, like the biggest grief is like I'm not gonna have a say so.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And these things feel really important.

SPEAKER_01:

Or I feel like my child does best when sometimes it comes from just really well-intentioned. You know, I was thinking about this the other day and I was talking about nesting and how some people do nesting, and I I had like a little reminder, even when you're in the same home, bedtime looks different depending on what parent is doing it. And you might have the same bedtime routine at the same time, but they're it's more like siblings than twins. And I find moms post-separation get real wrapped up in things need to be twins. Yeah. But they won't, babe. Like they won't, even when you're in the same house.

SPEAKER_00:

But it makes but it makes sense that the poll to make things as the same as you possibly can out of wanting to protect your kids from grief and trauma and change and transition, like that pull to be like. Like I feel so awful about what my kids are having to go through and what or what I put them through or what we're putting them through, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And we're right back to guilt, guilt and shame. I see that go a bunch of different ways. I think sometimes there's a over controlling that happens. I think sometimes there's a passiveness or an overcompensating sometimes. Like, well, you know, we we did this horrible thing to you, which not my, not the words I would choose. And so, you know, who really cares if you go to bed late? I don't know that that's conscious, but I do think it happens. Oh yeah. Right? Yep. Or there's this weird sort of dynamic, especially around bedtime, of, well, that's great. You got to stay up late over there, but now I get to deal with an overtired kid that's falling apart and it's transition day. Right. Then you fire off a message and things just go from there. Keep escalating. I mean, this is hard stuff. I mean, this is not this is not easy work. How do you keep the group from becoming venti?

SPEAKER_00:

Because I I actually think that venting is therapeutic when done in boundaried ways. Sometimes the space, you know, that someone needs to have in the group or in individual therapy is just I need to get it all out because I can't say this to anybody else. And I need to say this. I need to say it and have someone just like hold it for me.

SPEAKER_01:

Witness it.

SPEAKER_00:

Witness it. And for so many people that have been in high conflict marriages, that is never something that they've had. I know. Right? They have not had the being able to the safety. So I do think that there is therapeutic value to being able to share it all and be like, okay, I think I got it all out. And members go, okay, so when you said this, it made me think of that. Or wow, you really you were really strong when you did that. Did you did you notice that? So it's kind of both. Like if the whole group is just venting, that's it's gonna be less productive.

SPEAKER_01:

Um yeah, I mean, I think I think the key that you're talking about is the boundaried way to do it and the emotional safety and the closeness. Because if one person just comes in and leaves the group the week after and they kind of just trauma dumped all over everybody, or just like my ex is such a jerk, la la la, like that's not productive, it's not helpful. Yeah. But I think there are spaces and times when just like you said, like you need to get it out, you need to process, you need to say things you have never said and have the safety of it. I was gonna say I see this a lot with like Facebook groups. It's just like a person so terrible. And I'm like, let's just get off the keyboards, you know? Yeah, this isn't helping anybody. We're staying stuck in like, but it's because there's anonymity. It's because there's not a push towards like reflecting on your peace and holding the grief and moving into healing and all of the beautiful things your group does.

SPEAKER_00:

And when people are in the beginning phases or hard moments, like so they may not be the beginning phase, but like they had a really unproductive mediation, they just need to come in there and dump, right? They need to be like, dude, oh my god, you need to hear that. Believe it. You will not believe this. And in the first few groups that someone, assuming they're coming in like kind of fresh, messy middle part of the stage of the divorce process, do they need to just get it out? Because they've been holding on to all the story and they've been ignoring parts of their story and pushing away parts of the story that they just like finally it just comes out and it floods.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And so the group is really good at holding space for knowing I was there once. Oh, yep, I I know where she's at. She needs to be here. She's just coming to terms with all of it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yep.

SPEAKER_00:

And then once they kind of move through that with safety and being reflected, you know, back to then they can start to look at it and start to look at the narrative. Narrative and words are a really important theme in the group. It's that everyone starts the group by telling their story. So the existing members tell their story, what brought them to the group, what they've gained from the group, what they hope to still gain from the group. And then the new members get a chance to do their story. And then every time a new member comes into the group, they t they have a chance to share their story again. And what is really, really neat is that they notice different things about their story each time they tell their story. They notice so beautiful. I didn't mention that thing because it doesn't bother me anymore. Or I did mention that new thing because I didn't even remember that that had happened when I first told my story. They see different parts and they get to be witnessed by the group in doing so. Narrative is a really important part of the group because you do need to like hear what your narrative is and hear how it changes over time as you learn.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. It's all these very subtle but intentional things that you've weaved in. That's probably a decent blend of your skill as a psychologist, which I happen to know is quite high. Also, just your intentionality of it and the experience of doing it for so long and seeing what women need. Does it run all the time? Yep. And then you open it and close it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Just when the group's full, we close it. I continue to gather referrals, and then when there's a spot open, we get them started. You are in the group for 12 weeks or more. Usually people are in for longer, but to get to your point, if you come in there dump and then you don't come back the next week, everyone's gonna be like reeling. Like, did I say something? Was it me? Was I too much?

SPEAKER_01:

So it's I really take that commitment very seriously to see if they're gonna be able to like hang with it, even what I want to end on just one beautiful kind of question before I let you go today. And you and I could talk forever. In fact, we planned a contingency plan to talk longer if we needed. And we will. I will see you and we will talk and we will have coffee and all the things we do. One message. If you could give one message to a mom, or maybe not a mom, but a mom, since we, you know, it is the kids first podcast. Um just freshly into her recovery.

SPEAKER_00:

What would you tell her? It's just like this is gonna be a journey. And wherever you are starting, wherever you're starting, it might look different from the next person. That is okay. Everyone's on their own journey and you'll get there, and it won't make sense to you now. But hang with it, do the work. You will be different in a year, you will be different in a year after that. You'll be different next month, really. But uh prepare for the fall like I used used to pre-kids, did 14ers. I haven't done it in a while, but um lots of metaphors from hiking, right? And the idea of a false summit where you think I'm almost to the top, and then you get to that top and you realize it was a false summit and it really wasn't the top, and you've got a lot another leg to go is defeating. And yet, like that is so if you prepare, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

You want to lay down on the trail and cry, but you really have to keep going. You do, really do.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, but something in you keeps you going, and the way back down is a lot easier too. But prepare for those false summits, prepare that it's gonna be long, but each time you're gonna you're gonna get there more and more. You're gonna put more skills together and you're like your kids easier. Yeah, yeah. Like all the work that you do with with clients, like feels hard to communicate differently right now. And then it's gonna feel easier at some point. It's gonna feel like, oh, I just know how to do this.

SPEAKER_01:

And similar to what you said, it feels very different in a month, in six months, in one year, in five years. But you do, I mean, especially when you have kids together, you have to think in the long term. How are you gonna react with this person when you're sitting at your kid's wedding? All right, my dear. Well, I am so grateful for your time and for your beautiful work with all of these women. You're such a gift to us and to our community. And we I love sharing this work with you and I love sharing life and all the things with you. So, for my listeners, we are going to have show notes that will have links to Dr. Hicks' work and where you can find her. If you ever have any concerns about that, you can also reach out to me directly because I refer to her all the time. I have flyers like literally sitting on my desk all the time. So very happy to connect you for her. She is on Instagram at the Center for Shared Insight, and her website is CenterforSharedInsight.com. We are so grateful to have you here. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me on. Wonderful. Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Kids First Co-Parenting. The best way you can support the show is by following, rating, and reviewing wherever you listen to podcasts, and by sharing it with another mom who could use the support. You can also connect with me on Instagram and Facebook at Learn with Little House, where I share daily tips and encouragement for moms raising kids through high conflict awards. And if you're ready to go deep and get more tools, scripts, personalized support, and coaching, come join us inside the Kids First co-parenting community. You'll find the details at LearnwithLittlehouse.com. Until next time, remember, your kids don't need to be perfect. They just need you to be steady and grounded, and as always, to put them first. Thanks for being here.